Notes on Arte with Jason Reynolds

Exploring the writer's whimsical collection

A few weeks ago, Jason Reynolds welcomed me into his home for an intimate tour. We discussed his favorite works, philosophies on art, D.C.’s creative scene, and the life of his collection. I almost died while holding a handwritten letter by Langston Hughes! He has toys from the reconstruction era passed down through generations and so many other interesting collectibles. And, of course, every object has a story. Watch the full interview below. Artist by appearance of work: Bisa Butler, Fahamu Pecou, Adebunmi Gbadebo, Lex Marie, Adebunmi Gbadebo.

Moving my interviews on screen has been a goal for some time. I am proud to present the first iteration of video content from #NotesonArte. Many thanks to my production + editing team Glen Gordon and Cherrelle Swain for holding my hands through this.

Transcription:

CM: Um, okay. So if you could be any piece of art in this house, what piece would you be? 

JR: Alright. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So if I could pick any piece that I could be in this house, it would be, uh, I think there's a lot of pieces that I could choose from. Right. So, it's tricky, but I think if I had to pick one, I would pick the chemises, the Malick Sidibè, uh, chemises. Um, just because I think one, one, I think it's rare to have one. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I like to believe I'm a rare individual. <laugh>. I don't know how true that is, but I like to believe so. Two, I like that it represents so many different versions of young black life, um, from, you know, dancing lovers, uh, homeboys. 

Right. It's a little bit of everything represented, uh, from free Mali in this particular time. I like that. Right. 'cause I feel like I'm, you know, like all of us, I contain multitudes. There's a whole lot of people in this person. Right.

CM: I definitely feel that. Right.

JR: A poly lithic individual for sure. A whole lot happening. Uh, and then also 'cause I think it feels, um, oh, I forgot about that guys. You hear that? 

CM: No, no, you're good. No, you're good. I hear it. But…

JR: Gotta hear it. It's a train board upstairs that turns every hour <laugh>.

CM: Seriously?

JR: Yes. Yeah. And I can make it do it, actually. So, if you wanna get footage of it. And I can actually put my own messages and everything in it. It's a whole other, yeah. We'll get to it.  

CM: That kind of rolls into the next question. You being a collector, right? So like, you've got so many different things here. Um, you know, you've got the pens , you've got the artwork, you've got this piano. So, what kind of started your passion for collecting 

JR: My mom. I grew up in a house full of stuff. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. My mom is a stuff kind of person. We like things, objects, items, tactility, right? Mm-Hmm.  I love to touch, um, things and to watch them get old. Mm-Hmm. Uh, I like to see patina and age, uh, and, and rust and rot. Right. Like, I, I enjoy the, I I anything that has to do with the natural evolution of a, of a lifetime I'm interested in whether it be human beings or whether it be the things that human beings make. 

So, in my house as a child, uh, that piano was, was in that house. Uh, my mom had old pots, old iron pots that were passed down from generations. A cast iron skillet that's been in our family years. Toys that actually I have in this house downstairs. 

JR: Old toys that, uh, have been in our family for a hundred some odd years, post emancipation toys that people in my family used to play with. I think living in that space and growing up in an environment like that, all you know, uh, is, is that there's value in things. Um, if the thing has a story, right, that I, I put the value in the thing, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> the thing doesn't put any value in me. Right. But I choose to value a thing, and then you hold it and you watch it, and you nurse it, and you prune it, and you, and you sort of look at the thing, get older as you get older, and there's something special about that relationship. 

So that's how it all started. And then as I got older, I found my own things to collect. 

JR: And for me, my mom's things were more like home goods. Right? Like a pot, like pots and, and like, you know, a barrel or old butter churns and like, things of this nature Yeah. Like hand churners, right. For me, it's all about, um, engineering. Uh, I am interested in process, as an artist, as a writer, my life is about process. Right? Like, what does it take to get from here to here? And so when you're thinking about, about an ink pen, I'm not thinking about the facility. 

Right. And, and sort of like the, uh, the actual, um, usage, the function of a pen. I know what a pen is for. I'm thinking about what this pen is made of. Right. These are pens that have been, um, thought about and, and created and designed with intention. Yeah. Right?  

CM: The one you showed me was exquisite. 

JR: Yeah. You know, and they had narratives around the pen. Right. Or if I'm looking at timepieces, right. I collect watches. I'm not collecting a watch because of the name of the watch or how much the watch costs. I'm collecting a watch because I'm thinking that there's an entire world of engineering in the 36 millimeter space, in the 36 millimeter space. Right. That in this much space, there is, um, arguably like a universe of engineering that functions on its own. 

Right. To me, like that's, it's like magic, right? And that's the reason why I'm collecting the watches. Right. So like, everything, I don't know. It all gives me the tingles and I won't collect anything that doesn't give me the tingles.  

CM: The tingles. Okay. So let's talk about some art, right? Okay. Like, what, in your collection, in this house right, gives you the tingles. Like what are some of your favorite pieces? 

JR: I mean, I have to, it's impossible for me to talk about the collection in this house without talking about the Bisa Butler. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Bisa, I think is inarguably one of the greatest artists of our time. Uh, right. For me, that's an, it's an inarguable statement. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Um, but, but the size of her work over the last eight, nine years, uh, sort of, um, she's sort of outsized us, right? 

She's larger than life at this point. Yeah. It's like, I don't, one, I can't afford it <laugh>. And two, I don't have any space. Yeah. it's the size of the wall. It is the wall. Right. I don't know what I would do. I mean, she's making work to me, that is, I don't wanna say she's making work for the museum, but she's making work that only museums can house these days. 

JR: Right. And it has nothing to do with Bisa. B is making work that is, is the size that she wants it to be for her to get her stuff off, right? Mm-Hmm. Her creative energy, right? Like, that's her thing to see a thing this large, to see black people. Yeah. This, this large, this vibrant thing. Right? Like, so I get it. It's not this ist a slight, the artistry, it's just the way things work out in terms of for the collectors, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I have one, but it's small. Right. Which is a very big small,

CM:  It's not that small, but it's small.

JR:  Right? I mean, it's, it's probably, honestly, it's probably like two and a half by two and a half. 

It's just that in the frame it's a little bigger. Right? Okay. Yeah. But it's, it, the piece itself is, it's, it's really only this big, right? 

And I feel so fortunate to have it. I feel, I mean, when I, when I got it, beast Butler's name, she was not a household name yet. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and it's funny, she was about to do a show that was her first, I think it was like a big show in Chicago. And then after that it was gonna be Basel. And so they were preparing all this stuff and they were moving this, the new work, which would eventually be the work that made her famous. They were moving it all around. And her collector at the, I mean, her, uh, gallerist at the time was like, there was this one piece, it was like an older piece. It's not going in the show. It doesn't really have a place in the show. Uh, you know, it's kind of small. It doesn't really work with what she's doing right now. 

JR:  And I'm on the phone, I'll never forget, I'm on the phone driving from Arizona to la uh, because that is sort of my recharge trip. I do that all the time. Mm-Hmm. That, that sort of stretch of land is where I get my, um, you know, kind of get myself together and kind of renew myself. Right. My sort of spiritual thing is in that stretch of land. And I'm on that stretch of land in the middle of the desert. The sky is big, the red rocks are around me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. There's nothing. Right. Don't know. There's, there's desert land and I'm on the phone and, and this is the conversation. It's like, I got this one thing. I don't know, you know, we don't know what to do.  It's not gonna make it into any show. We don't, you know, it's that kind of thing. 

Um, can I send it to you? Maybe you'll, maybe you'll like it. And I'm like, yeah, let me see. And she sent it and I fell in love with it. And, and that was that, you know. Mm-Hmm. I didn't know that a year later Bisa would be, you know, on a rocket. No idea. Mm-Hmm.  But, um, but I believe in my own instinct. I trust my own intuition. I know what I like, I believe in my taste. I know what I like. Right. So I pulled the trigger in. And so that piece for sure that's up there. I also have to put Fahamu's piece, um, yeah. 

CM: This one, right? 

JR:  No, the one downstairs that the sketch that's in, that's in my, uh, in my study. The reason why I like that piece is because it was the first piece of my collection. 

And because of the way it was attained, it was acquired. Fahamu was a guy that, um, I, at the time I did not know, but I loved his work. I still love his work. I love, um, what he has done. I mean, he's, he's a young man who's already had a retrospective. We're talking about a person who has produced some incredible pieces, lots of them. And is a staple in the art world, specifically in the black art world. Uh, and really deserves a lot more shouting about who and what he's done. And I was looking for his work 'cause I loved it so much. I need to figure out how to get my hands on some of this. Um, because I wanted to start my collection. I didn't have a lot of money. I didn't have a lot, um, or even a lot of information. 

JR: I didn't know how to go about anything. Uh, and so I reach out to him Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I tell him who I am and what I've got going on and what I would like to do. And, I've thanked him for this many times after. But what he did was, he said, look, there's a gallery in Texas that has my work. His work is spread out everywhere, all over the world. He said, there's this gallery in Texas that has my work. Check it out, see if there's anything there that sparks you. And if there is, let me know. And I'm gonna tell that gallery that when you call to set up a payment plan. 

CM: Nice. 

JR: And, and they're gonna set it up so that you can finance it and you'll pay a little bit of money a month. And that work will be yours when it's paid off. And that was the only way that I would've been able to have any, to get anything like that. And, and I, and I went through that process and I, and I acquired that work. And it cannot be overstated how important that moment was. Um, 'cause he looked out for me. He understood, like, this, this kid, he really means what he's saying. He really is trying to build, build his collection, or start his collection at the time. 

And it's impossible. Right. We know this, the collecting game, um, is gross  oftentimes. Right. And, and it's like the artist is charging what they're worth. Right. But when we get into the galleries And all the other pieces to the puzzle that is the business of this thing it can get a little disgusting. And, and, and it can, and it can lock a lot of us out. And so I will always, always, always, always shout for him out for being so kind to me and for giving me an opportunity to step into this space. 

CM: I mean, well, you know, that's my next question. It's just like about what your experience has been with galleries, right? Because as black collectors, you hear so much about how, you know, you've gotta buy this to get to that , or know someone. And, even if you have the money like, you still can't get access to the piece. Mm-Hmm. And so as somebody that is, you know, a celebrity what has your experience been like? 

JR: 

I, so here's the truth. You know,  I skip, I skip galleries. I don't deal with galleries. I deal with artists. Um, and, and that, and, and look, I say this, obviously this is coming from a place of privilege, right?  My dms and emails are answered a little quicker than some other people's, right? Just because of whatever cachet comes with my life and profession. Um, but nonetheless, even before all of that though, I always reached out to the artist. The reason why is because, um, honestly, is because I believe from judging from my artist friends, judging from sort of the way, even the way I grew up around arts, is that artists want to know where their work goes. 

Right. A lot of us wanna know where is this gonna live? Where, who's getting this? What or who is my work in conversation with? I might not want you to have it. 

CM:  And that's a real thing. 

JR: And I think, um, and, and, and there are artists who are not concerned as concerned with the value growth. Right. With the inflation of the work. Right. Right. So like, you have people who are like, yo, I only want celebrities to buy my work because their value adds value to the thing that I made. Right. And then you got other people who are like, I want black people to have my work. I want somebody's mama who loves this, Somebody who loves this to have this. 

Right. And who's not thinking about it as a flip or even an investment, but who's thinking about it as a piece of beauty that adds to their lives. Right. My art, as much of it as possible is on these walls because they enrich my life. 

Every day I wake up, I move around this home, and I am, uh, catalyzed with creativity by the things that exist that other people have made that, that I get to live with and live around. Right. And so for me, I go to the artists, whether that's an email, whether that's a dm, thank God for social media. Because it really is a way to kind of like circumvent some of the, some of the gallery nonsense. It's not fair that I could walk into a space with all the money in the world and still be locked out of purchasing a piece that I love just because I'm not on your list. And, the watch world is this way, by the way, the pen world is this way. It's all, it all works the same way. 

JR: It's this weird hierarchy that nobody really understands. Some of it rooted in racism, some of it rooted in sexism, you know, all the usual isms. Right? Or people don't assume that you have it.  I'm just sort of like, nah. I'm gonna reach out to the person and be like, hey, it's me. This is what it is. This is what I'm about. If you know anything about me, uh, you know that I'm into winning. I'm not interested in selling nothing. I'm not interested in exploiting anybody. I'm not even interested in haggling or negotiating. You tell me what it is and I'll figure it out. 

Um, I wanna support black artists because we have to. And I want your work to be in the home of a black person. That's it. And if you, if you're rocking with that, hit me back. And if you not, all good, I'll still support. I'll watch and wait my turn, but I'm at least gonna shoot my shot. And 99% of the time, that's how it's been. I hit Fahamu, I hit, uh, I, I hit Bisa and she patched me through, And was like, okay. Um, I hit Adebunmi directly. All the photographers, I went to a contact who, who was not a gallerist, but who was a collector and knew who to plug me in with. 

JR:  You know what I mean? I think we've gotta work our channels, um, sometimes in order to get the things that we desire. 

CM: No, I love that. I mean, so like, you collect all types of art, but like, why is it so important to you to collect Black art? 

JR: One? Because, um, I think that, uh, <laugh>, because I'm biased and I think Black people do everything the best. First of all, I just do. Right. And look, is that true? I don't know. It's hard.. It's hard to codify whether that's true or not. Right.

CM: Right. Exactly. But you can feel that way!

JR:  But it's true to me. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I, I really believe, I believe that our, our, um, our really complex experiences specifically in this country has given us, uh, just, just a broader reach as it pertains to creativity, vision, talent, taste, I really do. Right. Um, I think it has been talent by fire. 

CM: Yeah. Oh, for sure. Right. 

JR: And, and, uh, and because we can't afford to not be great. Right. At least it's, well, now we're in it. We have a little more, a little, I like to believe we have a little more wiggle room. 

But, you know, that's arguable. But you know,  the work that I've collected, especially some of the older stuff, they had to be great. Yeah. They  had to be great in order to be acknowledged. And even still, and even then, they still, most of the time weren't acknowledged. So I think that's, that's one part of it too. Because our work usually lives in the homes of white folks and museums and, and in all these other places. Which by the way, for some of those white folks, they really can appreciate and respect the thing that we do. Cool. My relationship to it is different. My relationship to the subject matter, to the aesthetic. 

Um, uh, and, and my care for it and not all black people are this way. By the way, I wanna be clear, this is not a blanket statement. Right? But, for me, uh, the care is a bit more intentional and a bit more intense. Um,I love us and, uh, and I care for us. And therefore, by proxy, I care for the things that we make the best that I can. And if I cannot care for it, then I will not buy it. If I know that I don't have the capacity to do all the extra things. Right. So, like, we can talk about the art that hangs in the house, but we have to also talk about the UV film on every window in this place. 

CM: Oh, wow. 

JR: Right. We have to talk about the fact that every single window in my home is covered in protective material to protect the sun from damaging my work. Even still, each one is framed with UV glass as well. I'm very particular and very protective of the art  that's hanging on the wall. We just talked about, I mean, a minute ago, about storage.My next step is about making sure that I get the things that are not hanging somewhere safe. um, to make sure that they, um, that, that they're also preserved. 

CM: You have Have a lot of things like, um, archival material, paper. A lot of paper.

JR: Yeah. A lot of paper. So I'm,, that's the next step, making sure that, and I'm learning. Right. That's the other thing. Just because I've been collecting for a long time doesn't mean that I know it all. Right. So I'm learning new ways to do this. I mean, learning new ways to ensure the work, learning new. Right. And, and making sure that everything is buttoned up. 'cause it's not just enough to buy it. 

CM: And cataloged. 

JR: And cataloged,  Exactly. because it's not just enough to buy and hang. And, I think that's sort of the way I feel about, about us, uh, and about our work. Um, and so, you know, I trust me more than I trust, look, I got stuff, I got museum stuff, stuff that's downstairs, like, uh, these old Langston Hughes pieces.

CM: That's crazy. 

JR: Yeah. Old Langston Hughes, like notes and handwritten notes and I mean, we looked at the Aretha Franklin stuff and all of that stuff. 

CM: Yeah. Handwritten notes from Louis Armstrong, who has that?

JR: All this kind of stuff. Right. And people ask me all the time, like, yeah,  doesn't just belong in the museum. Nah. I trust me, I'd rather be here where my friends and family and whoever else comes into this space that I've built for us. For us. Right. My home is a home built for us. People come in here and they get to sort of touch that. They get to say like, oh, I'm holding this letter. I'm holding Aretha Franklin's tax forms. I'm holding this letter from George Washington Carver. 

Right. I'm touching what he touched. There's something that we Yeah. Need to experience, uh, when it comes to touching the things our ancestors touch. 

CM: I'm gonna get my whole life when we go see Langston Hughes. 

JR: Oh yeah. I definitely will show you that. It's wild. I have a lot of that stuff down there for sure. 

CM: Um, but so it's not just that you do it for us, you also do it for the DMV, right? Like, you have, you have like Deborah Roberts and Yoyo Lander and Bisa Butler, but you also have a lot of DMV artists. 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you know what I wish I had? I, I had, I bought it, but I don't, I haven't gotten it yet from, uh, from Chela’s  joint. I got Nate, I got a Nate Palmer piece. I got, I got the one that's used. The one, the kid dancing. He's got the NASA shirt. 

CM: Oh, nice. It’s the signature image right?

JR: It's, it's like the, it's like the big, it's like the one they used to promote the show. Right, I ended up buying that. And also shout out to Chela Mitchell  

CM: Yeah, for sure. I just interviewed her for Bmore Art

JR:  She's a special one. 

CM: She really is.

JR:  Yeah. And her intention and her focus and her discipline, uh, and her sort of, uh, she has an unwavering sort of fortitude around what it is that she's trying to do. She has a constitution, and I'm gonna do my best to try to put some money in that gallery. 

CM: Her entire kind of like process for how she selects the artist that she works with, we like went through that. It's gonna be in the print issue this fall. It's just so thoughtful. Very, very spiritual.  

JR: I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan, but I, so I, wish I had it. But, um, yeah. DMV, you know what, I'm proud of being from here and I'm proud of my family's history here. Um, I'm proud of the people from here. I'm not one of these, you know, you hear all kind of weird stuff around like, I gotta get outta D.C. I gotta do this, that, and the third, we don't have enough creative class anymore. We do all this stuff. Right. Everybody, everybody talks about this place like they don't love it. And I'm thinking to myself like, yo, if you don't love it here, it's because you're not taking advantage of what the town actually has to offer. 

Truth of the matter is that this is actually a gold mine. I truly believe this. And I, and I've done the New York thing. I've lived in New York for years. I did all of that. And, I love New York. I'm not, I'm not poo-pooing on New York. Right. But what I'm saying is, is like, yo, this little teeny square and  the surrounding areas, is like literally the most powerful place on the planet, first and foremost, right? So if we're like, this little teeny place that we all run around in is the center of power on earth, right? For better or for worse, is the center of power on Earth. And because of that, there, and I think we've talked about this. There are these two things. We've talked about this, right?

CM: We have, because every time I say I wanna leave, you're like,no. 

JR: There are two things about this place that I think we take for granted. And, don't take advantage of. Number one is the Washington Post. Listen, I don't know. Everybody's like, I gotta get outta here. All right. Cool. Washington Post is an international media outlet. It's a newspaper. It's in your backyard  Who covers, uh, primarily because of, 'cause it's the federal district.They cover politics and they're dying to cover something else. 

CM: It's so hard, you really have to work the connections. Like, I just finished an intensive and we had people from the Post that participated. So like, yeah. Yeah. That opens it up. But it's hard. 

JR: You only, but you only gotta meet one person. No, you're right. And, and, and the wild thing is that once you meet one person from the Post, and they write about you one time, they'll call you every six months. What you got going on? Literally so like, what else is happening? What else is happening? Because the Metro section has to be written about. 'Cause DC style has to be written about. 'cause the art section has to be written about. Right.  Because all these things have to be written about, because the newspaper is a newspaper every single day. It gives us all actually a ton of opportunity to be in a newspaper that is an international newspaper. 

It's just that most of us gotta figure out that one little, we gotta find that one connection. 

JR: But once you do that, oh, you talking about getting national press regularly and there's only three newspapers that count in America. This is the truth, right? There's the Post, there's the Times, and there's the Journal. These are the three newspapers. That's just the facts in terms of what's being spread all over this country. Thy Washington Post, the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. Right. And if you can be in the Washington Post, because it's in your backyard and it's a city that's dying and thirsty to cover something other than politics, you should probably exploit that. You should squeeze that. Right. That's an opportunity. 

The second thing is you live in the nation's capital. So whatever you do, whatever you do, I told you this, whatever you do, you can call National <laugh>. It's the wildest cheat code It's the wildest cheat code that none of us ever use. 

CM: National Notes on Arte! I mean, I think that that's fair. Like, I've talked to some other artists, well, when I talked to February about moving back and like how she felt about like, um, what people say about D.C. and whether or not she's gonna be able to make it. And like the whole creativity thing. She was just like, I'm making art from wherever, like  anywhere I am, you know? My art, my art is not bound to the city. 

JR: Right. It's not bound to dc But, but I can live here and my art can live wherever it needs to live. And the city can feed me. It can incubate me. It can comfort me. I'm normal in this town. I ain't worried about running around. I'm not interested in any scene. I'm cooling in my regular house, in my regular neighborhood, living my regular life. 

CM: This is not a regular house. 

JR: Fair enough. <laugh>. But to me, it's right.  And, when I go outside in my regular neighborhood, my regular neighbors be like, Hey, what up Jay? 

Everything is cool. And I ain't gotta worry about being whoever everybody else thinks I am. I like it. I like that I get to walk around and see the same people. I like my little teeny city. And I can go see my mom when I need to. I can get good food. I can go to see the best museum system on the planet whenever I want. And walk around there and like, honestly, I'm good. I'm, I'm, look, all of these hate gotta stop. I'm just over it. Yo. Haters are everywhere. 

CM: I mean, they are everywhere. But I think that there are a lot of artists and creatives who are still very deeply frustrated with their ability to kind of get out onto the scene, you know? So like, what do you think, what do you think the city needs for that space to really pop and for artists to feel like they can stay? 

JR: Yeah. Honestly, this is the, this is what, like I say, I'm speaking from a place of privilege and I had to leave. Right? So like, I don't wanna pretend, I left and came back and was good to go. Right? Um, and so the first thing I would say, number one, honestly, for those of us that go, you gotta come home. And, I know that's tough. And, I don't knock anybody for not coming home. Right. I get it. Right. Life in L.A. is lovely. Life in New York is,  I'm good on New York now, <laugh>, but I get that too. I understand it. But, I do wish that more of us would come back. I think I wish more, you know, you know what I love, you know, one of my favorite narratives around this, around like the, the artist in this area, Pusha T. I think it's great that one of the best rappers of all time that a super successful, really famous, just a nasty talented man living in like Montgomery County and has been there for a long time. He's not, he ain't just moved there. He's been there most of his career. 

CM: Oh, I didn't know that. 

JR: Yes. He lives in Bethesda. Chilling. And when he talks about this place, he talks about it with love and affection. He was on Drink Champs with N.O.R.E. And they were like, they were asking him, D.C. or New York. He's like D.C. They were like, D.C. or L.A. He's like, D.C.,  D.C. or Miami, He's like, yeah. I think that everybody's missing the boat. He is like, I love it there. I'm cool. Right. And he from Norfolk, Virginia Beach down that area. Yeah. But he lived right here. He and his family lived right here and has been here for a very, very, very long time. Whatever he sees is what I see. Whatever he sees in this, in this little pocket is what I see. Um, and so my advice is, number one, I'm not telling you not to leave. 

JR: First of all, I'm not that selfish. I understand that we don't have the industry here as of yet. But, I do think in order for us to build that industry, sometimes you gotta come home once you get it right. Imagine what it would've been like if Dave Chappelle would've came back. Right? I know Dave is complicated in this particular moment, but seriously, like, or imagine what it would've been like if Martin Lawrence still lived it, or imagine what it would've been like if, if Brent Fiyaz and Rico Nasty and, and all these cats, right. Kali Uchis. 

<stomach growls> Yeah. My stomach is so hungry. Right. But think about all these, like these cats, these youngins that are killing it in the music front. Right. And Gold Link and Right. And Wale. 

JR: Right. Imagine if like, they all were just like in Petworth. And in Kingman Park and in Anacostia just cooling. Yeah. Imagine if they were in, in Silver Spring or in Seat Pleasant, right? Like, it was just chilling or in Bethesda for that matter. Like, I'm chilling. Right? Like this home Imagine what that would be like. 'cause then it becomes a thing where it's like, oh, I don’t gotta leave. Because I'm looking at my hero. I'm, I can see them. Yeah. Right? 

I do wonder in my, in my sort of utopian version of this place, if we did come home, or people knew all the artists that came outta here, imagine if Alma Thomas, if people knew what she had done while she was living

CM:  Oh, there's about to be an exhibition that's gonna talk about that, actually.

JR:  Like imagine. Yeah. I mean, think about, here's, here's a story. Think about the fact that when I was an 18, 19 year old, I remember going to, um, David Driskell's house. He lived, he lived in Hyattsville. That's crazy. He lived in Hyattsville in a beautiful home, tucked up in a regular neighborhood in Hyattsville. And I remember going to David Driskell's house to ask him to write a forward for a self-published book that I was making.  And he did, he wrote the Forward for this book. That's crazy. I was a teenager. A teenager. But I could, but I could locate him and go to his home and just not, excuse me, Mr. Driskell, imagine what it feels like. 

And now people know who he is. Right. They have the documentary. Right. And all the art nerds, we all know who he is, right? Yeah. But imagine one of our greatest black artists. That's crazy. Who ushered in an entire generation of the greats He lived in Hyattsville. He lived in Hyattsville in a regular house in a regular neighborhood, tucked right up in there, not too far from Vigilant. And, we walked and I walked right up to his house, to his door and knocked on the door and asked him for a forward to my book. 

CM: You just like, didn't even have any previous correspondence with him?

JR: I knew him ‘cause I went to Maryland. But you never saw him. Right. I saw him one time at Maryland and I was doing an open mic, and he showed up because people were talking. Everybody was talking and whispering. And, so he showed up to see what the fuss was about. And when he comes in, he likes stands off to the side. He was always dressed very well. He was a very sort of debonair man, you know what I mean? Neckerchief and buttoned up shirt and trousers. And he always sat with his legs crossed, right. And he sat and he had his legs crossed and he just sort of watched. And, and that was it. And I came up to him afterward and I told him thank you. 

And that was that. And then I found out where he lived, because back in the day we had the phone book, looked him right on up and went right to his house. Mm-Hmm. And I said, Mr. Driskell, I apologize for bothering you. Um, but we met, you saw me the other night at the thing I'm writing this thing I'd love for you, if you could, you know, write the forward. And he said, send it to me. And I sent it to him. And that was that. And it took a little while, but he ended up getting back to me with this beautiful forward, I was a teenager. 

CM: I gotta see that. 

JR: If I can find it, um, I will, I will show you what that looks like. But, I take all that to say, imagine, imagine what that must be like. I mean, I open my door all the time and there's some kid who's like, wow. Or somebody drops off Uber Eats and I'm never afraid. For me it's like, it's important that, you know, shorty, that like, you read me in school every day, or you see Miles Morales or whatever it is that you are into, and, you know, I live in your neighborhood. It's important Right. To be tangible. And I think that's a part of it too, for all the young artists that we need to see some of that in our city. cause in New York, you see that, right? Yeah. You see us everywhere. You in Brooklyn, you go to the store and you're like, oh look. There goes, you know..

CM: Spike. 

JR: Yeah. There goes Spike. Exactly. I see Spike all the time. I can ask Spike for help. Everyone in Brooklyn sees him all the time. Yeah. Like I used to see Spike all the time. Right. Or I used to see, I mean, on my, on in my neighborhood, we would go to the, I would go to the coffee shop and  you know, Michael K. Williams lived down the street. God bless him. God bless the dead. He lived down the street. You would just see him around. You'd go to the block party. Michael K. Williams is in the circle dancing his face off.

CM: I think that you're onto something with that. I think that if more people came, then it would definitely create this kind of community that people wanted to be a part of and pour into. Yeah. Um, so like in terms of the art world in general, like what, what things are you seeing that you love and want to see more of? And then what do you wanna see less of? 

JR: What I wanna see more of, and that I'm loving right now. I, I wanna see more, um, tactile. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I'm looking for like Rauschenberg, but like Black. 

CM: Mm. 

JR: That's what I want. Okay. That's what I rock with Lex. I'm rocking with what Lex is doing. 

CM: Yeah. I like the direction that she's going. 

JR: I'm interested to see if Lex is gonna make objects. I've seen her make like the pencil guns and like all that stuff. She's fascinating to me. And, I'm watching her very closely just to see where she's going. But I do like that she's making things that are, that feel physical, that feel, uh, uh, three-dimensional. Yeah. So I want to see that. I want to see, I know we're past this point in this movement, but like, some of that abstract impression and stuff, like, I'm, I'm curious about, about that kind of stuff. Stuff that's gonna be hard for me to put in, put in my house. I want something that's gonna be a little difficult for me to have in here. Okay. Honestly. Like where you gotta come in here and there's a thing in the middle of the floor, and I'm like, bro, this is where it go. 'cause I don't know, <laugh> 

CM: Some minimalist sculpture.

JR: Yeah. Like, I want, and I do want some sculpture. That too. Right. I want, um, I want, you know, I think I, I, I would love to find, and there is a sculpture that I, a sculptor that I follow that I've been watching for a few years. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. He's down in Atlanta. I'm sure you probably know him. I can't remember his name at the moment, but I'll tell you later. He's down in Atlanta. He's using bronze. He's old school. It's like, oh yeah, yeah. Bronze and, and stone. And I'm like, man, I would love to get, and they're, you know, smaller pieces. I would love to get some of that. 

CM: I'm still like, you really blew my mind with Rauschenberg, But black. But 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want, what does that look like?  

CM: I'm about to find that for you.

JR:  Right, exactly. I'm, I'm interested in, in that what I wanna see less of, oh, this is gonna be controversial. 

CM: Let's hear it. 

JR:  That's what and we've talked about this. We've talked about this. I'm looking for ..  I just want less figurative. Yeah. I'm just tired. Look, I love black people's faces, but I'm, I'm over it. 

CM: He's like, no more portraiture, please. 

JR: I'm done. I'm done with the portraiture. You know, I, IIII love us and I love seeing us, but, but damn yo, like some subtlety, Right? Like we, we as a people…I think poetry is important. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And I think it's okay for poetry. You know, when you ask, if you ask, depending upon what tradition of poetry people study and read. 'cause there's many, many, many, right. But I had a buddy of mine, white guy, uh, Kevin Proofer down in Texas. 

He said to me one time, he said, you know, poetry, like entering a poem is like entering into a problem solving machine. You're inside the problem solving machine, but you never see the problem solved. But you're watching the wheels turn, you're watching the machine work, but you never see the problem actually solved. 

JR: And that is like what poems can be Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I think I want to see that in art. I wanna see Black art be, um, an unsolved problem. And I think paintings of people are solved. 

CM: You know? That is interesting. I mean, I'm giving away this whole February  interview here. Right. But like, there's a lot of, there's just a lot of like nuggets in that, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and the work that she makes, even though they are people, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because of the titles and because of the emotion that is there. Those questions are not worked out in the painting. 

JR: And I'm with that, you know, they, I mean, I think Kara does it well. 

CM: Yeah. You're Like left in that moment. 

JR: I think, I think Kara Walker has done it well over the years where it complicates the argument. It complicates the narrative, right? Like I, some of that right? Like, I, because I'm okay with figures, I just think I might be exhausted with figures, for figure's sake. Right. I'm tired of portraiture. Yeah.  And I get it, man. I love to see us too. And they're all beautiful. Right. But and that may be why I love February so much because they're not so beautiful. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so it's a different way of thinking about portraiture and figurative painting. 

And I'm like, I think I love that too. I think that's why I'm drawn to her work. 

CM: Oh, absolutely.

JR:  I really want to see some abstraction or something that's challenging in a different way. 

Because Black people are capable and are complicated and are challenging. And I, and I just want to see, you know, there's this, I, I wish I could remember this artist. Oh gosh. But he does this, he did this thing where it was like, it looked like, it honestly just looked like squiggly lines. Uh, he had like a, it was like a blue spot and a red spot and green spot or something like that. And then it was just like squiggly lines. And when he was asked about it, he was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is basically what I, he said, what I, what I actually painted looks like these circles and squiggly lines but what I was actually trying to paint was, uh, this is a flowerbed. 

And, I was trying to map out the journey of a bee from, from, from Right. 

And just, and, and literally was like watching videotaped and was trying to draw the actual journey of the bee from, from bulb to bulb as, as it was pollinating the flowers. Right. And that's where all of this was. Right? Yeah. And I know that Black people have like,I know we, I want to see that from one and from us. 'cause I know we're capable. I know we think about these things. And by the way, if we don't do it, I'm still gonna buy it all, I love us regardless. Right. But I'm just curious. I just know too many brilliant people for us to, I just know we

CM:  You don't want us to be boxed. 

JR:Yeah. Like, I just want change. It's like, you know what I was trying to do 10 years ago, I was called on the phone with a homeboy of mine and I was like, bro, I need you to help me. 

Um, I wanted to, I wanted to do my own, I wanted make a piece of art, and I wanted to, uh, basically figure out a way to listen to the audio of a riot or, or  an uprising or listen to the audio of say, uh, a, a protest or listen to the, the audio from one of Dr. King's speeches, and then have it transcribed to piano and  then play what that sounds like as music, as like a soundscape. 

JR: Note for note. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And like, these are the notes, right. So you don't hear Dr. King's words. You hear the notes from the timbre of his voice. And I was never able to pull it off. Right. I just, I just never got it done. But I want us to be like thinking like, I mean, pushing ourselves. 

CM: I think there are a lot of artists working like that. I mean, well, this makes me think of Kandinsky because like that a lot of the work was based on musical notes and also based on spiritual awakening that he was trying to embed in the work. 

JR: Um, you know, the artist that does the portraits or like, they're like images of family life, but there's no, and it's done with like a heavy, heavy oil paint. Right. And she's almost using, looks like, almost like a scraper. And there's no facial features. They're just like, there's no face. It's like, you know, these are Black people and Black families, but the faces are just, blank. Uh, when I see her, I'll find her work, but, um, I even like that. I just like, I just want us to 

CM: To stretch. 

JR: To stretch. Yeah. Yes. Go. We make beautiful things. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> we're making a lot of beautiful things, but I want to see us make things that are less about beauty and aesthetic and more about, I hate the word conceptual art, but I, but are more concept. 

CM:What! I love conceptual art.

JR: I know, but I think, I think that everybody thinks they have a concept and they don't <laugh>. You know what I'm saying? That's all. But I wanna see more Bunmi.  Yeah. Like, I want to see that where she's like, yo, I imma take Black people's hair and I'm gonna go back to the indigo plantation that my family worked and I'm gonna take their hair, take soil, take all of this stuff, and I'm going to take cotton from this plantation. And I'm basically gonna turn all of this into almost like a form of paper. 

CM: Yeah. Like that. That's fire.  When you were going up and down the steps I was just staring at, it's amazing. 

JR: And you know why it's amazing also is because it also upends Black people's fear of anyone getting ahold of their hair. Right. So we also have so much lore and myth around we talk to you, talk to your mom about this and your grandma. 

CM: Oh yeah, that’s how they put roots on you. 

JR: Yeah. Black folks are always afraid of letting anybody get a hold of their hair. My mother still is cleaning her combs and brushes and burning the hair still, still because she's like, yeah, man. That's where all your, that's what your magic is.

Right. And it's like, people can then just have control of your soul. They can put a root on you. Right. And Bunmi, her whole thing is like, cool. Y'all don't think it's strange that the thing that is most powerful, uh, that comes from us, we just like flush it down the toilet and burn it and this, that, and the third. Mm-Hmm. She's like, if it's that powerful, why not? Why not enshrine it? Why don't we lift it up and elevate it? It's the only thing she, her family,  her mom is, is Black American. Her father is Nigerian, I believe, right? 

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. She said the only thing that connects them is this. All the DNA, right. The thing that is the true sort of telephone line across the Atlantic is a strand of hair. 

CM: No, that's Deep.

JR:  And so for her, it's like, this is right. This is important. We shouldn't just flush it down a toilet and burn it. And then she's like, we could, what if we could figure out how to enshrine this thing? And to say like, no, let's elevate it because this is actually what makes all of us the same. Right. And, that is a concept, 

CM: But that's, that's what I'm saying. Like, when the conceptual art is good, it's good.

JR: I agree. It's good. I agree. I want to see more conceptual art from us. And there's a lot of it. And also I wanna say all this to say also, I just may not know where it is. Right.  I'm not saying it doesn't exist. Black folk are amazing. We do it all. I just haven't found it, I'm looking for it. And, and so for those of you who listen to this or read this or see this, just know I'm looking for you. Hit me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. 

CM: Oh yeah. There's a lot of people that are gonna like (raises hand)

<laugh>. <laugh>. 

CM: I love it. I love it. So what is the life of this collection that you've been building? Like when you are gone, you know, what's gonna happen to it? 

JR: It's a good question. I don't know yet. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I don't know yet. I know there's a, we've been doing a lot of, um, when I say we, I mean me and the people who work with me and around me. And for me, uh, trying to figure out ways to start thinking about the archive, um, of all my stuff. My papers, my objects, um, my work. Um, and so I don't, I don't know. I'm taking suggestions. My books and all of that stuff, some of that will go maybe to the Library of Congress or we will go, I'm sure there's some university, like, we'll figure that out. But I don't even think I know where people's collections go. I'm actually a little ignorant in that space. I don't know. 

CM: It's all different. Like, some people pass it on to their families, you know, 

JR: I don't trust them. They can't get it. You know? I love them, but 

CM: You trust you. Right. I know a lot of different Black collectors who like, maybe their kids don't want the artwork or like, maybe they don't want to give it to a bigger museum. We'll have to keep talking but maybe some sort of foundation Yeah. Or something that makes it available to the public. 

JR: Right. I would love, you know, what I would love, you know, is that when my time is up, you know, to take this house and to keep it preserved. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, the one thing about having any sort of notoriety is that you get to, you get to use it to, especially in D.C. and, and in most cities, you get to use it to create historic spaces. 

CM: Yeah. I mean, Frederick Douglass house, like there's still shoes that he wore in there. 

JR: Yeah. I would love, I think, uh, I don't think I'm nearly as important as any of those people <laugh>, but <laugh>. But I will say that, uh, this is also one of the beauties of living in D.C. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is that there's not a lot of us. 

So I would love to preserve this particular space and keep it open to the public and maybe put all the art up and have people really come in and are able to spend time here. Turn it into some sort of, you know, for artists and writers and maybe a residency. I would love that. And just, you know, like this was, this was what I built it for. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, in my life. I lived here, worked here, and my friends worked here. And many, many people have been up and down these steps. And, it has been a bastion of creativity and love and support and imagination. Right. Black imagination. 

JR: This is a space that was imagined by me. And, people worked here every day to make sure that everything was up to, up to snuff and people could come and go and spend time and hang out and write. You know, it could be like, you ever been to Hillwood? 

CM:I don't think I have.

JR: It's here. It's a mansion and outside estate, museum. 

CM: Is it across from Malcolm X Park? 

JR: No, it's way up by American University.  It's way up top. 

It’s Marjorie Merriweather Post’s home. Yeah. And, you know, she was obviously general foods. Right. But also she was a socialite. Yep. And a collector of everything. Mm-Hmm. From around the world. You should go. Her home is now just a place that people can go and hang out. They got a restaurant around, it's amazing. If you ever wanna do some, if you ever wanna duck off and do some cool stuff, that's way, like in a little pocket of the city where no one ever is. 

CM: Oh, say less. I'm going, that’s amazing. I'm going.

JR:  Um, and so I would love for it to be like that where it's like, yo, you can come, the bar is open. Right. And there's a bartender here. You can come and have a drink and chill and just be in, um, in the space that I once lived in and not thinking about me, but thinking about you. Like, what does this mean for you? Right. This was built and collected, uh, and stored and kept safe for you. 

CM: I love that. I mean, so we basically just figured out what I think. I think we figured it out. I mean, I love that. Okay. I mean, that's it. Thank you so much. This has been amazing.

JR:  My pleasure.